The anti-Zionist Jewish historian, Professor Ilan Pappe, said in an exclusive interview with "Arabi 21", "There are current indicators that indicate that we are at the beginning of the end of the Zionist project, although it is difficult to predict when this project will collapse and when it will end specifically."
He explained that “the events that preceded last October 7 showed that there is a civil war within the Jewish community between secular and religious Jews, with no common ground that can be agreed upon,” stressing that “there is a false illusion that because of the Hamas operation unity has returned, but the matter is “Not so; it will continue to tear apart Israeli society from within.”
Pappe pointed out that he was very disappointed by the decision of the French publishing house Fayard a few days ago to withdraw his book “Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine,” considering it “part of an attempt to silence the debate about Palestine by the Zionist lobby,” and he said: “But fortunately, "We have found a new publisher, and these efforts to silence us are doomed to fail."
He stressed that withdrawing his book, which is considered one of the important works that dealt with the Israeli occupation in Palestine, “is a violation of freedom of expression, not only in France, but in many Western countries that pride themselves on being democratic. When it comes to supporting Palestine, this freedom is not respected.”
Since last November 7, the French publishing house Fayard decided to withdraw Pappe’s book, which it published in 2008, and libraries and specialized websites can no longer order the works of the Jewish historian, with a note saying that the aforementioned book has been permanently suspended from marketing.
Fayard claimed that the reason was formal, and attributed the issue to the expiration of the contract with the author on February 27, 2022, so it officially suspended the contract on November 3 of last year, which Pappe denied for the first time in his special interview with “Arabi 21.”
The Jewish historian revealed that he was subjected to other restrictions as a result of his anti-Zionist stances, continuing: “From time to time, there is pressure on my university to expel me, and in some places in Europe my lectures are cancelled, but this will not affect my activity for Palestine.”
Ilan Pappe is a professor at the Faculty of Social Sciences and International Studies at the University of Exeter in the United Kingdom, director of the European Center for Palestine Studies at the same university, and co-director of the Exeter Center for Ethnic and Political Studies. He left teaching at the University of Haifa in 2006. Because of his views and intellectual and political positions, he belongs to the trend of new historians who rewrote Israeli history and the history of Zionism, and he has many books in this regard.
Here is the text of the special interview with “Arabi 21”:
The French publishing house Fayard recently withdrew your book “Ethnic Cleansing in Palestine,” which is considered one of the important works that dealt with the Israeli occupation in Palestine. How did you receive that step? Why did the house do this?
I was very disappointed by the French publisher's decision. I consider it part of an attempt to silence the debate about Palestine by the Zionist lobby. But fortunately, we found a new publisher, and these efforts to silence us are doomed to fail.
But Fayard said that it resorted to this because the contract with you had expired. What is your comment?
I very much doubt that is the reason. The timing is very clear, and this is happening at a time when France supports the genocide of Palestinians in Gaza.
Is there any action you have taken in response to what the prestigious Fayard House did?
No, because they have the legal right to do so. So, it is up to public opinion to judge this behavior.
Does what happened reveal the truth about the “freedom of expression” that France and the Western countries that support Israel talk about?
Of course, this is a violation of freedom of expression. But, she says, not only in France, but in many Western countries that pride themselves on being democracies; When it comes to supporting Palestine, this freedom is not respected.
Fortunately, unlike governments, NGOs are not afraid to show full support for the Palestinians and their struggle.
Are you subjected to any other restrictions as a result of your anti-Zionist positions? Are you affected by these restrictions or not?
Yes, from time to time there is pressure on my university to expel me, and in some places in Europe my lectures are cancelled, but this will not affect my activism for Palestine.
To what extent does the idea of religious selection and “God’s chosen people” justify the heinous crimes committed by the Israeli occupation forces?
This idea is important to a certain group in Zionism, namely the national religious groups. More secular Jews are less motivated by this idea, but the power of national religious Jews has increased dramatically in recent years, so this idea now influences Israeli politics.
To what extent has Israel's image been damaged in world public opinion in the wake of its recent aggression against Gaza?
As I mentioned, civil societies, even before the events in Gaza, were more and more pro-Palestinian. The events of the last two months have made it more determined to stand in solidarity with the Palestinian struggle.
This has not yet affected Western governments, but we hope that over time, the associations will influence government policies.
Is there a complete Jewish rally around the world behind Israel in the wake of the “Al-Aqsa Flood” operation that broke out on October 7 last year?
Many Jews around the world, especially the younger generation, are not Zionists. Therefore, Israel cannot rely on the world's Jewish communities to provide it with automatic and unconditional support. I am happy to see the large number of young Jews who reject Zionism. This moral Jewish position will help in our struggle against "anti-Semitism" and against Zionism at the same time.
In fact, in many places Israel relies more heavily on right-wing parties and Christian Zionists.
Does Israel distort the image of Jews or insult the Jewish religion?
Israel has complicated life for Jews around the world. It equates Zionism, which many people believe is a racist and colonial ideology, with Judaism. It is also important to remember that Israel is the most dangerous place for Jews; It is the only place where Jews were killed in large numbers. There is, of course, anti-Semitism, especially in the West, but there are alternative ways to fight it, the best of which is to fight racism of any kind in every country.
How much influence do anti-Zionist Jews have on Israeli society?
There is only a small group of anti-Zionist Jews within Israel, and so their influence is very limited. There are many anti-Zionist Jews around the world, and they play a very important role in the Palestinian solidarity movement.
Is Israel a state of “all Jews” or a state of “all Zionists”?
I think the answer is clear. It is the state of the Zionist Jews, but not all Zionists; There are many Christian Zionists.
What are the roots and causes of Israeli extremism, both religious and ideological?
The source of extremism is the nature of Zionist thought. It became a settler colonial ideology in the 1920s, meaning that it viewed the indigenous people of Palestine as foreigners and a major obstacle to the creation of a European Jewish state in the middle of the Arab world. All settler colonial movements operate under the logic of excluding the native as the only way available to them to build a new state in a foreign country.
Is "Zionism" a secular or religious idea?
Zionism began as a secular movement. In fact, it wanted to secularize and modernize the Jewish people. But it used religion as a justification for colonizing Palestine, hoping that Jews and Christians would be convinced to support it.
In recent years, Zionism has become more religious, and I said before that religious Zionists now have more influence than ever before.
In your estimate, when and how will “Zionism” end? What is the future of the anti-Zionist axis?
It is difficult to predict when the Zionist project will collapse and when it will end specifically, but it can be said that there are indications that we are at the beginning of the end of that project. It seems that the only cement holding society together is hatred of Palestinians. As the events leading up to October 7 demonstrated, there is a civil war within the Jewish community between secular and religious Jews with no common ground on which to agree; It has proven that the rift within the Jewish community cannot be bridged. The only common basis is war and conflict, while you cannot maintain such a state forever.
There is a false illusion that because of the Hamas operation unity has been restored, but this is not the case, as it will continue to tear Israeli society apart from within.
There is also an increasing rejection of Zionist thought in global civil society, which will ultimately affect the policies of countries, especially since people have begun to view Zionism as an illegitimate regime, and this idea has become widespread among world public opinion, and this will inevitably have implications for the future of the conflict. Israeli-Palestinian.
The younger Palestinian generation will provide a more consensual and clearer direction to the fragmented Palestinian national movement.
There is also a clear development in the United States of America, which would lead to a greater desire not to get American involved in the Middle East
It is still possible that future democratic transformation in the Arab world will lead to more positive Arab support for Palestine, which means more commitment to Palestine.
Civil society around the world will begin to influence policies that will make Israel a pariah state.
Could Israel enter into a “white coup” against Zionism in light of the possibility of its demographics changing in the future?
I fear that there will be no change from within the Jewish community, even if the demographic balance changes. This will only come through effective pressure from abroad in the form of sanctions, and from the region.
How will the Israeli war on Gaza end, in your opinion?
It's hard to say. It appears that it will take longer than the Israelis imagined to defeat Hamas militarily, and that Hamas will fight to the last man. So this could be a long time.
Once this happens - if it happens - Israel will annex part of the Gaza Strip to Israel, and try to persuade the Egyptians to receive refugees, or other countries, and if that does not succeed, it will leave them inside a smaller strip, and they will try to convince a multinational force to take charge, and try to build a kind of Of autonomy there, without Hamas.
Will they succeed in all this? I'm very skeptical. But much depends on whether war breaks out in northern Israel on the border with Lebanon, and what will happen in the West Bank and inside Israel? How will the world react to all these challenges?
